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I wonder how !vegan alcohol consumption compares with non-vegan alcohol consumption.
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@zoowar Aside from Irish cream, I would expect there is very little consumption of non-vegan alcohol. !vegan
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I understand how you interpreted my intrigue the way you did. I meant to place emphasis on how alcohol is consumed in both #vegan and #non-vegan populations and these rates compare.
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@zoowar *grin* sorry! (not sorry) But for reals, if anyone has studied it, I'd be interested to see what was found.
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My expectation is that #vegans consume less alcohol on average than non-vegans.
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@zoowar Seems plausible.
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But why?
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@zoowar To choose to drink alcohol, one has to somehow rationalize or deny its obviously harmful effects. Similarly, most people simply eat what they enjoy, without giving a lot of thought to the meaning or impacts of their food choices.. But vegans are thoughtful about what they eat, and they have a variety of motives for avoiding animal products, including concerns about personal health, animal welfare, climate change, water consumption and pollution, labor conditions in food production, etc, etc. and alcohol intersects all of these concerns with impacts very similar to those of animal agriculture and food products, so vegans would be likely to abstain from alcohol for the very same reasons they would avoid animal foods, but regardless, it's apparent that many vegans do drink alcohol.
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@sklaing I hadn't considered vegans abstaining from alcohol for the same reasons beyond some beers I've heard being filtered with fish products of some kind. Interesting observation.
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@hobbsc OK, I'll bite: why are fish products are used to filter beer?
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I expect that #vegans abstain from alcohol for reasons unrelated to alcohol.
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Maybe I should have said, "unrelated to #veganism"
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@zoowar Like...?
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I drink beer and sometimes wine. But there is a limiting effect. As vegan you tolerate less - if you listen to your body. There is also vegan wine in German organic food shops. Don't know about beer... For me yeast is not from animal like origin. Honey is. I'm a raw eater too. I changed from vegetarian (ethical reasons) to vegan in 1986 (Chernobyl) to keep my food chain short and limit my exposure to pollutants.
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@vegos It sounds like we're in a very similar place here: I enjoy small amounts of alcohol, infrequently. My body doesn't tolerate alcohol as well as it once did - I suspect this is due to age, but maybe there are other factors, like (speculating) maybe a vegan diet fosters a different gut biome that metabolizes alcohol less effectively.
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@sklaing @vegos Your immune system gets into rythymns as well. This is essentially how tolerance to both drugs and alcohol works. It doesn't make it less harmful, but if you are frequently having certain things in your body, your body gets "used" to dealing with it, whereas if you experience certain things infrequently, it is less "used" to it.
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@maiyannah *nod* That makes sense. @vegos
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@sklaing @vegos Its (sadly) why pain medications are often so ineffective for me >.>
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@vegos Oddly enough, many transitioners report that going from a testosterone to estrogen dominant endocrine balance reduces both tolerance and appetite for alcohol. Likewise people going the other way often seem to experience the inverse. @maiyannah
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@sklaing Someone should have told my hormones that when I was younger lol, my liver might like me more.
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@sklaing (But the fact that my depression was apparently linked to hormone deficiency and they put me on estrogen to help regulate it does actually lend that some credence)
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@maiyannah huh...and E helped with your depression?
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@sklaing I wouldn't say it made it go away but I don't go randomly trying to kill myself because of depression anymore which I'm sure at least ONE person isn't disappointed by.
Psychiatry is in many ways the science of body chemistry.
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@maiyannah Mhmm...I think we've talked a bit before about how organic factors often play a large role in depression.
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@sklaing The body's a complex machine with a lot of "moving parts" and in my case pretty much all of them malfunction in at least some small way, so I've always been a doctors favourite patient or their most hated, depending on how much they like their job, heh.
BTW, I haven't forgotten about the promise to look into the immigration stuff for you, I have to go in next week for the monthly stuff about the physio coverage for the leg so I'll take a look then if I don't get down before then!
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@maiyannah Ah, yes, thank you - I'll be ready to put any info you pick up to use here in couple weeks!
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I want to add the following (also hormone related). Avoid plastics in your kitchen and in contact with food! Two good sources:
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/a_warning_by_key_researcher_on_risks_of_bpa_in_our_lives/2344/
http://www.hormone.org/hormones-and-health/endocrine-disrupting-chemicals/hormones-and-edcs
I gladly got permission to translate both to German.
One read for psychiatry, what neuroleptics do on the long run (PDF):
http://www.dgsp-ev.de/fileadmin/dgsp/pdfs/Wissenschaftliche_Artikel/Aderhold_Stastny_A_Guide_to_Minimal_Use_of_Neuroleptics-_Why_and_How.pdf
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I out now for job training. Bye
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@vegos Interesting... Thanks for the links - ttyl! @maiyannah
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@vegos A lot of the chemicals we use every day or are present in everyday objects are things we don't understand the risks for, really, which is callous at best. It's one thing to understand the risk and mitigate or nullify it, its another to try to suppress the understanding of that risk, and there is a strong industry lobby that wants us to just bury our heads in the sand and pretend that there could be no possible risk, which is not wise.
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@zoowar Don't mix your drinks!
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In the shit I couldn't possibly make up department, some beers are filtered through some poor creature's kidneys. More obviously, some beers contain honey. I think there's also an issue with wine, but I don't remember what it is.
Barnivore seems to be the authoritative site on all this. @zoowar @sklaing @vegos @tuttle !vegan
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@benfell you are thinking of gelatin used to "clear" beer and wine. made from skin and bones. but i'm not sure about kidneys.
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@hannes2peer It turns out it's right on Barnivore;s home page--but bladders rather than kidneys: "When filtering the drinks prior to bottling, companies can use things like isinglass (from fish bladder,) gelatin, egg whites, and sea shells, among other things. These products grab onto the impurities and make it easier to catch them in the filters, though there are many animal-free alternatives in use." I was thinking of isinglass.
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@sklaing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_and_beer#Finings i guess they use the swim bladders of fish. i've never seen it done (and i used to brew beer). just had friends tell me about this.
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@benfell @tuttle @zoowar @vegos @sklaing Some beers are filtered through my kidneys.
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There should be a "some" in my expectation. I perceive an overlap of vegan and healthful in some of the vegans I know. Alcohol is often portrayed as unhealthy, so they abstain.
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I stumbled upon Barnivore when I was looking around. I had no idea what some distillers are doing.
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Better stated than my reply.
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@zoowar Hmmm...I'm still confused by "abstain from alcohol for reasons unrelated to alcohol" - did you possibly intend, "abstain from alcohol for reasons unrelated to health"?
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I corrected that to "unrelated to #veganism", which is still confusing. The idea is that alcohol doesn't violate vegan.
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@zoowar So...in that case, it seems that most alcohol could be considered vegan, in the sense that it is not an animal product, except the alcohol that is filtered with animal products, or mixed with animal products, or any of the various fermented animal milks, or if one's veganism encompasses yeasts as a type of animal.
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But if you are nor animal, it is vegan beer!
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Thank you all for the enlightenment.
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@sklaing I've got the same idea about people who generally analyse what they do (be it vegans, environmentalists, the combination or some other variant of thoughtfulness). But I get very, very confused when I meet vegans (there are lots of them/us here in #Umeå) that smoke cigarettes.
Most of those are in it for the animal rights though, rather than the environmental effects or workers' rights. So they don't care about landmasses being used to farm tobacco or the awful conditions the ones doing the farming have compared to what they could have given a fair and equal society.
But then again, I also get very confused about people arguing for gender equality, transgender rights etc. exclusively using Facebook for their Pride campaigns, night clubs etc. (local activists in #Umeå actively support clubs with gender separated toilets by having their events in such places rather than choosing clubs with a higher degree of awareness).
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@sklaing So the bottom line of my post is that even though people with certain ideas and ideologies tend to think about societal matters more, they also seem to be pretty hypocritical when it comes to somewhat similar - often even overlapping - issues.
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@tuttle @zoowar Really it's been interesting to follow, could not understand why vegans would not take alcohol, yeast are fungi, now i see.
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I'm not vegan, but I am a smoker and I do care about the environment. For me this is a contradiction. Not smoking would do a lot more for the environment than e.g. yousind simple unpacked soap bars instead of shower gel. I do use soap bars. Smoking is an addiction for some people more so than for others. I tried to quit over and over for 20 years now. And as long as I don't succeed I have to live with that contradiction, I am aware of it, but I can't help it right now. There are other issues, too, beside smoking. I just do what I think I can. Which could be better. And there are so many issues out there, not everybody can do everything, just try their best.I don't want to make excuses, just add a perspective. Probably some people would call me a hypocrite.
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@einebiene I don't mean that everyone can quit smoking just like that and I understand the power/influence addiction can have on people. But many of the specific people here in Umeå that I think about - as far as I know - really don't have much of a reason to continue smoking. Especially given their political convictions.
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I have a lot of reasons to quit. The only reason to go on is addiction, there's nothing else. It might be different for other smokers, most people are not as addicted as me (I know this from scientists I took 3 quit-smoking classes with). But I was just giving an example. Even if you care there are so many and complex issues out there, it is so hard to do it right, and some people succeed better than others. And often there are aspects that people are just not aware of. I think its a good thing when people do what they can. and it is good to get a friendly nudge to make them aware of something they maybe didn't think about...
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@mmn Not sure if it's hypocrisy, or just different parameters they're optimizing, but it's certainly true that some people's choices appear, to an outside observer, to be oddly inconsistent. Maybe...they are not completely rational animals? Fascinating, Captain.
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